Hey Nate, thanks for the response. Here's my explanations...

1. Universal vs. Relative

"There is a universal, absolute truth This is something you just have to decide for yourself..."

What if I never come to that decision? This may be picky, but it sounds like you're using a relativistic qualifier for an absolute statement.

My point was that it gets very complicated and abstract to make an argument for if there is a universal truth or not, so I was trying not to get into it. For instance, while I believe the most logical conclusion is that there is a universal truth (just from evidence in life and experience), what if logic itself is relative? Can you prove to me that the world as you perceive is anywhere even close to the way I perceive? Researchers know that memory is relative and highly pliable, for instance. What if logic is the same. What if, if you were seeing the world from my eyes, by far the most logical conclusion was that there is a universal truth? Now, what if, from your's, the most logical conclusion was that everything is relative? It's impossible to have a logical argument on this topic when part of the argument implies that logic itself could be relative!

My end point is that while I believe that the most probable and logical answer is that there is a universal truth, this is something ultimately I cannot convince you of and you have to decide for yourself. Not that either of our decisions actually change the fact of if there is a truth and what is is though.

2. Seeking the Truth

"Humans innately seek truth and are only truly happy when they do so."

While I do believe that humans naturally seek truth over falsehood, I also believe that they seek it by their own means, (not to mention that they often have very different definitions for these things). Without God leading seekers to the Truth, true happiness will never be found.

When I said “happy,” I did not mean in a overall, continual contentment in life sense. I meant it more than you guarantee unhappiness when you are not seeking the truth, though many other things can prevent happiness as well. Obviously, as a Christian, I believe that it takes more than simply seeking the truth to make you truly and continuously happy. Also, I want to clarify my original statement a little. A better way to have said it would have been:

“Humans are only happy when they wholly believe they are seeking the truth.”

In other words, sometimes in life we try to lie to ourselves (and sometimes to others) because we think that it will make us or them happy. In fact, this whole idea of “happiness when seeking truth” came from a conversation at a campus ministry I had while I was at Georgia Tech. One of the interns there said he was talking to some other interns about how they would feel if they died and got to the afterlife, only to find out that Christianity was not true and there was no God (obviously you wouldn't be a conscious entity at that point, but this is all hypothetical anyway). They all agreed that they would actually still have wanted to believe in Christianity because it made them so happy during their lifetimes.

At first, I could understand this and I almost agreed, though it left a bad taste in my life. But after going home and thinking about it for a couple of days, I firmly decided otherwise. I decide that no, I would have wanted to know the truth. I would've wanted to know that there was no God and I would've wanted to not live my life for one that didn't exist, even if that life would've been far better and fulfilling than one without God.

Another classic scenario you hear about is kids who are never told their adopted. Some parents believe that if the kid goes their whole life never knowing, that that would make it where they almost really were a biological child? First off, you run the risk of them finding out when they're like 40, which could be detrimental to the relationship between the child and his or her parents. But even if they never find out their entire lives, I still believe it's wrong to do that to them as a parent.

You, as the parent, are endorsing a false reality on your child, which is very wrong in my opinion. I've come to firmly believe that our personal sense of reality is a very, very precious thing. Betrayal, an act that most would agree to be one of the most damaging things someone can do to another personal, is really creating a false reality for someone else and then pulling the rug out from underneath them later. Again, another way to rephrase what I originally said is:

Humans need to know that their sense of reality is in fact real, and this need is something they cannot help. They can consciously or subconsciously try to bend or distort their reality from the truth to make life easier or more comfortable, but in the end they will not be happy in that state.

3. How close to the real truth can one come

"Though you can never be 100% that you know the truth..."

I'll refer to Ben on this, but I remember him telling me about Francis Schaeffer's writing on exhaustive knowledge. In reference to your statement about being 100% on the truth, I would have to agree if you mean that we will never have exhaustive knowledge of the Truth, ; however, I do believe we can be 100% about knowing the source of Truth, Jesus Christ. And this is where faith comes in. We were not given inquisitive minds to be continuously asking and seeking without rest--God gives us enough knowledge to be conclusive in many areas and more importantly to be at peace through his Holy Spirit, so that we may live life abundantly in faith. And this abundant life, I believe, does involve a desire to learn and a search for truth, but in a much different way than before we are saved.

Yes, I was talking (mostly) about exhaustive knowledge of the truth. In other words, many churches think that they have the right doctrine. 100% accurate. And many people (if not most) think their beliefs are the right beliefs. In the end, it becomes quickly apparent that that is very unlikely. Everyone puts their own spin on everything that goes through their head. And I'm not even talking solely about religion or philosophy. The same can go for politics, sports, the arts, just about anything really. But you're right, Christians know the source of the one truth, the person that does have exhaustive knowledge of the truth.

My point was that while it can be depressing that you'll never have the finer points of your beliefs completely aligned with the truth, I do believe that if you keep and open mind and are always willing to listen, then you will continually become closer to that truth. That is, until the next life when that journey will be completely. This is much like our current lives a sinners. While none of us will ever truly be what God intended us to be in this lifetime, I do believe we are currently being refined into that state and are continually getting closer. This too will be completely at the second coming.

4. Fear of one's own beliefs

"If you are scared or defensive about your beliefs, you have to ask yourself why."

I agree with you that if we are afraid of any of our beliefs, we should look into them and find out why we are afraid. We are to be prepared with a defense for what we believe, but if by defensive, you mean a scared aversion to questioning of our beliefs, than I agree with you.

Yeah, I was saying “defensive” as in a scared aversion to questioning. That's a good way to put it actually.

Response to "Belief Systems"

Some thoughts:

"There is a universal, absolute truth This is something you just have to decide for yourself..."

What if I never come to that decision? This may be picky, but it sounds like you're using a relativistic qualifier for an absolute statement.

"Humans innately seek truth and are only truly happy when they do so."

While I do believe that humans naturally seek truth over falsehood, I also believe that they seek it by their own means, (not to mention that they often have very different definitions for these things). Without God leading seekers to the Truth, true happiness will never be found.

"Though you can never be 100% that you know the truth..."

I'll refer to Ben on this, but I remember him telling me about Francis Schaeffer's writing on exhaustive knowledge. In reference to your statement about being 100% on the truth, I would have to agree if you mean that we will never have exhaustive knowledge of the Truth, ; however, I do believe we can be 100% about knowing the source of Truth, Jesus Christ. And this is where faith comes in. We were not given inquisitive minds to be continuously asking and seeking without rest--God gives us enough knowledge to be conclusive in many areas and more importantly to be at peace through his Holy Spirit, so that we may live life abundantly in faith. And this abundant life, I believe, does involve a desire to learn and a search for truth, but in a much different way than before we are saved.

"If you are scared or defensive about your beliefs, you have to ask yourself why."

I agree with you that if we are afraid of any of our beliefs, we should look into them and find out why we are afraid. We are to be prepared with a defense for what we believe, but if by defensive, you mean a scared aversion to questioning of our beliefs, than I agree with you.


I hope this hasn't been too picky or preachy...if it has please, rip me apart.

My Philosophy on Belief Systems

I also posted this material on my personal website at http://www.robertl33t.com.

Over time I have developed what I call my philosophy for belief systems. In other words, my thoughts and own personal guidelines for life/religious/philosophical beliefs. Tell me what your list would be and if you disagree with any on mine.

There is a universal, absolute truth

This is something you just have to decide for yourself, but to me it makes more sense than the idea that everything is relative. The truth could be that there is no supernatural forces, that there is a God, that we're all in the matrix, or anything else, but it's there.

Humans innately seek truth and are only truly happy when they do so.

This is something I learned from experience. I believe that while people try to lie to themselves and try to believe what they want to believe, there is no true relief than when you finally give in and accept the truth. I believe this is a basic human trait.

Though you can never be 100% that you know the truth, it's reasonable to think that if you strive to have a truly open mind and search for many different experiences, you will come closer and closer to the truth throughout your life.

Already in my life I have experienced some pretty drastic changes in my views on the world and relationships. These changes happened when I let down my defenses and tried to see things for how they really were. This act of vulnerability was hard the first time but has progressively gotten easier. All that is left is to simply have faith (in life, God, whatever you believe in) that at each change in my beliefs I am coming closer to the real truth, even if I take some side roads and backtrack sometimes. But, to do this, you have to constantly check yourself and ask yourself why you believe the things you believe. Is it because you're scared of rocking the boat? Is it because you don't want it to be true (or you're deathly afraid that it isn't true)?

I definitely don't mean to imply that I "have arrived" in my beliefs for anything. But I do mean to say that I am not scared of my beliefs anymore. I think that this is the tell-tale sign of believing something for the wrong reason. If you are scared or defensive about your beliefs, you have to ask yourself why. Often, whatever is scaring you is making you close minded.

Finally,

We're all in this together.

We're all seeking the truth and we all want to know the meaning of life. Though arguments and personal attacks are inevitably going to happen, I think it's important to recognize that we truly are all in the same position and all want the same thing: the truth. Why can't we all just share our ideas and try to figure out what makes the most sense? I think the main reason people get upset when talking about religion is because they are indeed afraid of their beliefs and therefore get very defensive.

Little Gods?

Thanks Ethan for a great start to The I Game.

Upon reading your entry, I thought of a quote I once read in the 3rd book from the Ender's Game Series, Xenocide.

This quote makes me rejoice in the wonderful, complex God we celebrate together
by creating and being all that we are in Him:

"Let me tell you about gods," said Wiggin. "No matter how smart or strong you are, there's always somebody smarter or stronger, and when you run into somebody who's stronger and smarter than anybody, you think, This is a god. This is perfection. But I can promise you that there's somebody else somewhere else who'll make your god look like a maggot by comparison. And somebody smarter or stronger or better in some way. So let me tell you what I think about gods. I think a real god is not going to be so scared or angry that he tries to keep other people down-- [People like that] want to stay in control. A real god doesn't care about control. A real god already has control of everything that needs controlling. Real gods would want to teach you how to be just like them."

I love this quote. But at the same time, it is not complete in its metaphor: in the Garden of Eden God didn't want Adam and Eve to have the knowledge of good and evil like He did. But he wanted them to work and be creative and make other people like He did.

I also love how this quote addresses the fact that God is not controlling. He is not oppressive. He does not "operate" us like machinery.

Let me know your thoughts.

The Nature of Creativity

Ok, here's a discussion topic, and it's something I've thought about a decent amount. What is the nature of human creativity? In other words, are we truly creative, or are we simply doing things that we were programmed to do by God?

I like to tie this into freewill in the sense that both creativity and freewill break the law of cause and effect. God gave us an ability to create things that are unique to us, not just what he programmed to create. For example, when Beethoven wrote his 9^th symphony, God didn't insert that symphony into Beethoven's mind and then Beethoven wrote it out. God gave him the tools and talents to compose and then breathed life into Beethoven (the life that he breathes into all humans – the Biblical “spirit”) and gave Beethoven unprogrammed freewill, and unprogrammed creativity.

For clarification, when I say “unprogrammed,” I'm trying to make a point that this is true freewill and true creativity. If God put into our minds what he wanted us to choose but then made us think that we were choosing it on our own, then that's a farce, and it is what I would call programming. Instead, I believe he made us like him in that we can truly do our own thing, both in our choices and also in what we create. I like to imagine that one of God's greatest joys is seeing us create and come up with things that he didn't think up himself at all. Now of course, he could have thought them up, just like God could have written Beethoven's 9^th, but my point is that he chooses not to and instead enjoys watching to see what we do. For we are the only other creatures in the universe besides him that can actually create new things and freely choose.

That's my own personal take, what's yours?

P.S. This might sound like it takes away some of God's sovereignty, but I don't think it does, just like I don't think freewill does. God chooses to give us creativity and freewill, and although he chooses not control or interfere with either, he ultimately could take it away if he wanted.